Letter: Pro-Appeal SIde Operates on Emotion, not Logic
Paul Auger responds to a recent letter to the editor by Richard Tomlins.
To the editor,
The Pro-appeal side operates on emotion rather than accurate data. Your letter, from the start, proves my point. First of all you don’t even know what day this took place on. You begin your letter with “Wednesday evening at the Cranston East Auditorium we witnessed the most uneducated vote in my career.” The fact is that the meeting was held on Thursday. I know this is a small point, but it clearly shows how those wanting to “save the banner” are running on pure adrenaline and emoting rather than checking their facts and making data based augments. If you were to make a fact based statement you would have to cite the 40 page judge’s decision, constitutional law, and meeting minuets. You fail to do these things.
You describe the vote as “uneducated” I am not sure what you mean by this. The vote was based on the documentation the school committee received from the judge, which he based on legal precedence. Additional data was gleamed from the advice of their lawyers. Furthermore the school committee had other data to base their decision on. This included the resources they had to follow through with an appeal. They “counted the cost” before they started, as the Bible commands. Luke 14:28-29 New King James Version (NKJV) For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him. They counted the costs, and saw that there was no way they had the necessary funds to finish the job, and do what manage the schools as they were elected to do. They were elected to run the school district, to serve all the schools, kindergarten through twelfth grade. They were not elected to work on this one issue. They looked at the data, and saw that they lacked the monies to move forward with the appeal and run the district; they knew to try to do so would make them, and by extension the city look foolish. I am well aware that many people were willing to fund raise.
Although I admire the “can do” spirit. It would have been an “uneducated vote” to appeal based on the funds that MIGHT have been raised by passing a coffee can, selling t-shirts, and having a bake sale. The decision had to be made based on the capital they had, not the money they HOPED to have. Doing otherwise would have laid the foundation, for a project they would not able to finish, and all who saw it would begin to mock the school, the school committee and those who supported the appeal.
Contrary to what you claim not ALL of the School Committee members claim to be “educators”. Many made it clear that night that they were not educators, rather there are concerned parents and citizens who want to have a positive impact on EACH SCHOOL, not just one high school in the district. More importantly they were not elected to be educators; they were elected to manage the affairs of the school district, which they did that night. What they told all current and future students is that they knew their role and put their mission before the demands of an angry mob.
You claim to be “shut off” at the meeting. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was there, in the second row, I saw the whole thing. You were not shut off. You were given three minuets just like everyone else. You were given “time check” so you would be aware of the balance of remaining time. When your allotted time expired, the same amount of time afforded to all others who spoke that night, you REFUSED to turn the microphone over to the next speaker, waving your arms and demanding more time, time you simply were not entitled to.
This highlights the true nature of the banner supporters. They feel that the rules or laws don’t apply to them. The judge’s decision was based on the constitution and the law. The appeal mob wanted to appeal, not based on the law, but simply because they did not like the decision. Not liking the decision IS NOT GROUNDS FOR AND APPEAL.
By refusing to let the next speaker come forward you revealed that you felt you were above the rules, the same rules that applied to others. You simply made a fool of yourself, hurt your cause, and embarrassed the city. It is apparent that even today you are oblivious to the arrogance you demonstrated that night.
As I said before, you refuse to base your arguments on empirical data and documentation. Instead you create a smoke screen of irrelevant statements designed to manipulate the emotions of people, rather than educating them. We see this here and in your video. The fact that you donated $750 to sports, $500 to music, and just donated $500 to the Basic music program has nothing to do with the correctness of the decision not to appeal. We see this on line as well. As part of your YouTube video “Dick Tomlins' Call to Arms” you say “This prayer mural has survived 10 U.S. administrations, several wars and even the attack on 9-11. . .” The fact that the banner existed for ten U.S. administrations has nothing to do with whether or not the banner is constitutional. It may be true that the banner was hanging on the school wall as several wars were going on, but that has no bearing on the appeal. The banner most CERTAINLY did not survive 911; it was in Cranston that day not the towers. Again the fact that it hung on the high school wall that day has nothing to do with the decision made.
You also cite your family’s history claiming that it gives you the authority to defend the banner and work to keep it up. Your family history though inspiring has nothing to do with the legal status of the banner, and makes your thoughts no more, or no less, valuable than mine, or anyone else’s.
The Closing of your letter show how out of touch with you are. The banner is coming down per order of a judge; anything else would be contempt of court. The only people who could appeal are those named in the case, which excludes you or me. So you CANNOT stop this. The banner will come down and rightly so.
The truth is you and the rest of the angry mob that night showed the true nature of the religious community. They are self absorbed, uneducated people who cannot form a coherent augment based on facts. Rather they hide behind an imaginary war on religion, using bumper sticker slogans to make points and stomping their feet like angry toddlers. The religious like to play the victim, behave poorly, and claim they are mistreated, even when they are the ones behaving badly. John Stewart said it best on the Daily Show; you have confused a “war on religion” with not getting everything you want. There is no war on religion, conducted by the ACLU, atheists or anyone else. Rather there is a war on reason, conducted by the church, it is a war the church is losing.
Richard Brum
1:45 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
The losing side often tends to resort to emotional arguments to try to make their points. This was a very well-written letter.
We need a secular government that remains neutral in regards to religion. This is the only way we can ensure freedom of religious belief and expression for ALL people.
CranstonPatchKids
2:23 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
you also cited nothing from the judge’s decision, constitutional law, or meeting "minuets".
And I'm appauled you would misspell Jon Stewart's first name.
Kathy Rubel
2:35 pm on Wednesday, February 29, 2012
I'm "appauled" that you would misspell appalled. Smartypants.
Ed
2:37 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
There is one key point that must be put on the table here....
The gentleman who wrote the above also put a video out on You-Tube which he clearly points out and is proud of the fact that "He Flipped A Pastor Off In The Middle Of A Church Service" ...
That fact alone shows that he is wound a little too tight and nothing normal makes sense to him...
It is still a fact that if there were money to appeal, the original decision would have been overturned, PERIOD!!! There are plenty of cases out there to prove this point... He just refuses to cite them...
Jenn Heaton
12:01 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Ed, do you have kids in the school system? 172K buys a lot of books. My children have books in their classroom and library that are stamped with the name of school that closed 30 years ago! Cranston couldn't afford to fight this. Thankfully the majority had the sense to know they'd loose again and not waste funds that should be spend on educating children
.
Paul Auger
12:36 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Jenn Ed does not want to talk about real issues like children's education, He rather attack me, answering your questions about books and how to pay for them would be work, These would be addressing REAL needs that we would have to work together ad a community to solve. Unlike the "Fake need/exclusive solution system I spoke of earlier, dealing with real needs as a community may not put Ed in charge, this means Ed wont be in control and will be unable to play the role of a bully.so he wont answer this question
Paul Ruggeri
2:18 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
"It is still a fact that if there were money to appeal, the original decision would have been overturned..."
Really? On what authority can you state that with such absolute certainty? What precedent? What body of knowledge gives you that insight? Or can you see into the future?
MythsAreSilly
2:40 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
I'm apalled you can't spell "appalled," but not at all surprised.
Pro tip: If you are going to criticize spelling, it defeats your position when you prove you suck at spelling, too, and it makes you look like a complete fool.
MoonBeamWatcher
4:00 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
The ACLU used this child to provide "Standing" for their agenda - the marginalization of religion and the overthrow of democracy in these United States.
The proof is the SILENCE from the ACLU in regards to the usurpation of
the Legislative Branch by the Executive!
Jenn Heaton
12:10 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
That's a far stretch that taking a piece of paper off the wall in a public school overthrows democracy.
Paul Auger
12:26 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Jenn when your freedom comes from something out side of yourself than anything can threaten it. Religion makes the believer look to a being other then themselves for joy. Any small change threatens their peace of mind, I wont go as far as call it "mental Illness" but it does not promote mental health either, It is a sad way to live,
Paul Auger
4:46 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
Ed thanks for proving the point I made in the letter. You are correct I do have a video on you tube in it I discuss my journey from being a religious fundamentalist to being a rationalist.. In it I discuss flipping off a pastor, over 20 years ago. Like Mr. Tomlin you refuse to put your comments in the context of the entire video series. The You tube postings you refer to are in reality 2 videos "My story 1"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAlle_fsdcs&feature=g-upl&context=G28d30c0AUAAAAAAAGAA and "My Story 2 ",http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozqJ0rlhMXI&feature=plcp&context=C3384502UDOEgsToPDskJzLl8GYYUx4VU2R8fj73cL. I talk about how I was refused ordination due to the fact that I have Cerebral Palsy (CP), and no matter how much I tried I could not get healed of it. After a dramatic exit from the church where, yes, I flipped the pastor off for implying the reason I was born with CP was because I was born of a "sinful seed". This story is why I LEFT the church. This event is not what fuels my activism in the atheist community today. The work I do in the atheist community today is based on my graduate level training in counseling and educational psychology, reading more professional research than I care to admit, and years of volunteering to work with victims of religious abuse. Feel free to watch my video. The text of the video is in the description
Ed
6:40 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
Paul.... What you fail to understand, handicap or not, is that you, and you alone, made a conscience decision to physically show your hatred toward others... PHYSICALLY buddy!!!
Quality people would walk away and be the better for it... Period!!!
I have absolutely no sympathy for you at all, you know what they say, "You made your bed"...... now, (you can finish the rest..).
That my fine friend is why I have nothing nice to say about you. You had an opportunity to do some good things, one barrier and you threw in the towel, and aggressive at that... Keep living with the scum and you become (you can finish this also...)...
Have a nice day ;-)
Maple Leaf
3:11 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Paul, I am appalled that you were subjected to primitive magical thinking and blaming the victim in a so-called rational era. You're well out of there. As a young person I would probably have just turned and left but I definitely would have fantasized about beating my abuser around the head and shoulders with a Bible.
Maple Leaf
3:15 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Judgemental Ed, a gesture is not physical violence. Get over your sense of privilege. No one has to be respectful to abusers, not even religious ones; and anger is not hatred.
Paul Auger
10:15 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
So Ed as usual you missed the point, while proving my point. If you read my letter you know that I was commenting on how the religious right cannot make a fact based augment. Instead they use irrelevant information to distract people and play with their emotions. They would rather work with platitudes than data. When they can’t make an argument they become abusive.
Thank you for demonstrating all of these things in this thread. This letter had to do with the prayer banner; I challenged folks to come up with data to prove their point. Rather, than discuss the content of my letter, Ed, you commented on me. You chose to distract folks with my video, since you knew you could not give supporting data to anything Richard said.
This smoke screen is followed with Platitudes- "You made your bed" “Keep living with the scum and you become” and LS says “(I)hope that someday they will search deep within their souls and find God's love and mercy has been there all along.” All of these things would make bumper stickers. They provide no real information. Since you have no data you use little sayings to bait people and get them to react rather than THINK.
Next you became abusive. You call people names like SCUM.
Paul Auger
10:16 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
cont
One of the more subtle forms of abuse and a common technique in religion are to create a "false need, with an exclusive cure" Here is how this works, and yes it is a form of abuse. A need is assumed to exist that does not really exist. Sin is a good example. The church spends lots of time convincing folks that sin is real although we have never measured sin and have no empirical evidence of its existence. Yet the church spends a good amount of time convincing people it does. As the church slowly wears them down they create a false need in their victim, something the victim wants "fixed" that does not need to be fixed, because the problem simply is not real.
Paul Auger
10:20 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
cont
Once the church “beats the victim down” convincing them that they have a need they do not have. The church claims the church,alone, has the only cure. These cures includes confession, penance, the blood of Jesus, indulgences the list if magic cures goes on. The key is they cure something that is not real and the only remedy is available though the church or other religious leader. That was the point of my video, is shows a real life example of this system of control and to warn people of this type of religious abuse, not to get sympathy, empathy or understanding, I have plenty of supportive people in me life, I don’t need to get support through you tube.
My church taughr that disability, illness and poverty come from being born of a “sinful seed”, and “keeping” a disability or illness is SIN! The church taught that it was a sin to be sick. If you have any illness, you are in sin, and that needs to be removed from you. Of course this is all a false need, I am good enough just as I am. I don’t need to be healed or forgiven. The church convinced me otherwise at age 15. They then made themselves the exclusive cure. This made me depend on them, giving them control over me. The more I tried the more I failed, the more I NEEDED them to get it right. Flipping the pastor off broke that cycle, it might not have been NICE, but it was good. THAT was the point of the video. To show people HOW the church works, and to get them out of that abusive situation.
Paul Auger
10:26 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
cont
We see this in this thread on a less dramatic scale. “You had an opportunity to do some good things, one barrier and you threw in the towel” This assumes that I need ordination to do something good and the church has to bestow it on me. In fact it was the only opportunity to do some good. If I just stayed in the church!
This neglects the fact that after I left the church and got a lot of SECULAR support I blossomed. I became a trained mental health professional Masters level, earned a degree in graphic art and web design and hold a Rhode Island teach certification. I now work with some of RI’s most fragile citizens using technology as a therapeutic tool. As you can see I hardly “threw in the towel.” Yet Ed attempted to create a false need and make the church the only way to meet it. Ed also assumes I need his sympathy-I don’t.
LS dose the same. “It's amazing how angry atheists are because the rest of us don't seem to 'understand' them.” This assumes I need your someone else’s understanding or the understanding of a magic being. I don’t. I understand MYSELF which is for more powerful. We all know the second half an exclusive cure -get ready here it comes! . . . (I)hope that someday they will search deep within their souls and find God's love and mercy has been there all along...
My point here that unlike Ed and LS I can address your points head on, something they fail to do here. I would challenge then, and others to address my letter and not me.
Paul Auger
11:13 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
By the way I miss typed Moonshell was the one that said “It's amazing how angry atheists are because the rest of us don't seem to 'understand' them NOT LS. See unlike the rest of you I can admit when I am wrong!
Maple Leaf
10:48 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
Excellent points, Paul! It was when reading the Old Testament that I realized that the whole "I've got a big scary god in my tent and if you see him it'll kill you--give me meat, oil, and grain" was a complete scam. Adding Original Sin to the mix made it the original Gypsy Curse--there's a curse on your [family] jewels and if you pay me enough I can work the magic to take it away. What a thoroughgoing scam!
Anyway, there's no God-shaped hole in my heart any more than a Ra-shaped hole, an Isis-shaped hole or a Thor-shaped hole. I'm no more angry at God than at Ganesh or the Tooth Fairy. I just don't want to see them promoted in a supposedly neutral environment for impressionable minds.
Paul Auger
11:04 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
So true! there's no God-shaped hole in my heart any more than a Ra-shaped hole, an Isis-shaped hole or a Thor-shaped hole. When you said that it reminded me of a so called children minister who tells kinds there is a dunkin munchkin shaped hole in their heart and Jesus in the pastry center that will fill it. You cant make this up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T93eGS6bl4w&list=PL35CA4D40B8115E82&index=4&feature=plpp_video
Jenn Heaton
11:54 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
I had a social worker friend of mine tell me just yesterday that as a small child, he used to lie awake at night thinking about going to 'hell'. Agreed with me it's mental abuse. Meanwhile you can buy forgiveness from the church.
Maybe it all made sense 1700 years ago when people couldn't explain why thunder made a noise or why the sun came up in the morning. We can explain these things now, even though the church put Galileo under house arrest for writing about what he saw in his telescope.
Some day in my perfect world, people will get to know ALL the history of their religion and see what Constantine did was only a shrewd way to make himself more powerful.
Paul Auger
12:20 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Thanks for sharing Jenn. You know we need to be careful we do live in a country that allows us to believe or no to believe. We want to celebrate diversity, At the same time we need to remember PEOPLE deserve respect ideas dont. We have this strange Idea that we need to respect beliefs, the truth is we dont. If an idea or wrong or cant be evaluated we need to challenge it, but we must the PEOPLE who hold the ideas with respect.
Sadly we are afraid to challenge religious idea's so we let children like you friend grow up with fears based on myths. This is abuse and it needs to stop
Paul Auger
12:43 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
By the way I sent Richard a copy of my letter to the editor, he email this back
From: Richard Tomlins
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:02 PM
To: Paul Auger
Cc: 'Mark Schieldrop'; 'Meg Fraser'
Subject: RE: Patch – Letter: Shame, Shame, Shame, Shame, Shame
"Well Paul, you used a lot of words to call yourself a beget. The reason that religion has lasted as long as mankind is something people like you don’t seem to grasp! Of course it has had had problems; never has there been anything but human beings involved at any level. In short they, as all of us are not infallible! You kind of gave yourself away( I am a student of human behavior) when you brought up Wednesday versus Thursday; that proves that you are willing to ignore the real issue to your benefit. In other words you let your PREJUDICE SHOW. I COULD HAVE GIVEN SOME CREDIT IF YOU STATED THAT YOU WERE A PATRIOT THAT BELIVES IN OUR FOUNDING AND WHAT EVERY President , but Obama has said about our land under God must be preserved now and always, if we are to be a great nation. And through it all we have been that nation doing more good around the world then all the nations combined. Just open your mind and let history in, you might see things differently.
Concerned citizen Tomlins "
Paul Auger
12:44 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
My response
No Rich I used many words because I actually responded to the points in your letter; just as I am doing now. The truth is that study after study show that religion is losing its hold on people. You claim to be a student of human behavior, I have the credentials to back it up. I hold a Masters degree in counseling and Educational Psychology. What Credentials do you hold? If you took the time to read what I wrote I already answered your concerns about the Wednesday/Thursday thing “I know this is a small point, but it clearly shows how those wanting to “save the banner” are running on pure adrenaline and emoting rather than checking their facts and making data based augments” Making data based augments would make us focus on the real issue, which as usual you have dodged.
Furthermore, unlike you, I don’t have to run around telling everyone I am patriot. People know what I am committed to do to by my actions, not because I use your preapproved catch phrase. To be honest Sir I don’t need you to “give me credit”, nor do need you to give me “stickers” or “brownie points”. Your evaluation of my patriotism pro or con is meaningless to me!
Paul Auger
12:44 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Now that I addressed you points let’s see if you have the manors, intelligence or class to address mine, something you failed to do in this response. I would challenge you to go through my first email point by point and address each issue I raised, as I have done with your letter to the editor and this email, but I doubt you will.
Paul:
Joe The Plumber
1:09 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Paul Auger
You say you stopped believing in God because some preacher at some church made you feel that your illness was caused by your sins.
Paul, God had nothing to do with him saying that. God did not make him say that. He was a human jerk. There are lots of human jerks in the world.
Don't be mad at God. He gave us free will. And some human jerks abuse their free will. You can be mad at the jerk preacher, but you really should not be mad at God.
And I understand that you are not happy that God does nothing to remedy your condition, but God didn't make that happen either. Stuff like that just happens. Bad things somtime happen to good people.
God is still there for you when you need strength to deal with the. Jerks of the world and all the bad things that happen to you. He's been there forever. He'll always be there for you.
You do not have to live with no purpose. You do not have to despair about the futility of life. You are not worm food.
God loves you.
MythsAreSilly
10:34 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
God isn't real. Get over yourself.
Larry
11:24 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Paul has found lots of purpose in his life. Your assertion that he needs god for his life to have a practical result or be useful is nothing short of abusive.
Cranston Resident
1:26 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
God loves "MythsAreSilly" and Larry too
Robin Lionheart
6:06 pm on Monday, March 5, 2012
And they better love him back, or else!
Joe The Plumber
1:18 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Paul, if you are willing to consider alternatives.
"The Shack" by William P. Young.
Maple Leaf
3:47 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle.
Paul Auger
10:03 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
JTP.
This shows a side of you a side I could like. I hear you. If there was a god I would let him speak for himself, and not let others speak for him, He has failed to speak for himself, to me, if he wanted to he could. As I made it clear above, I am evidence based. God has not provided me with evidence. I am open to it if he wants to, he has my number I am sure.
That said, one of the things I used to teach as a preacher, was that "we are the only Jesus some might see. We are the hands and feet of Jesus. We represent him on Earth". With this in mind I reflect back on the way Christians treat me on line and in person, based on their representation of the god they serve I am glad not to be numbered among them. Joe, one of the things I would ask people from the pulpit is "Could you go about your daily life with the text of 1 Corinthians 13 printed on a t shirt you were wearing and not get strange looks from people because your actions are not a reflection of the text on your shirt?" Look at the way I am treated here by Christians.Those who are to be the hands and feet of Jesus used them to beat and kick the day light out of me.
I know I can be a bit "in your face" and I am not always the most gentle person on line. I wish you could see me in other situations. Like the children I work with on a daily basses. I fight the church not out of hate for the church but out of compassion for the churches victims. I only wish we could have had this manner of dialog before now.
Joe The Plumber
2:26 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
Remember churches are not God.
Cranston Resident
8:02 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012
Paul,
I haven't written again because I have given up on you.
God however, has not. He has always had more patience than I.
Paul Auger
10:25 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
JTP as far as the book you recommend I am always up for a good read, I might look at it
Joe The Plumber
2:32 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
It is not an easy read. But based on what I hear you saying, it may be worth your while.
Paul Auger
1:28 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012
Any one notice how Ed, LizS, Cranston Resident,and MoonBeamWatcher have not said a word since I explained their MO? Also why has Mr. Tomlins not emailed me back and actually address the points I brought up in my email? Just asking!
Ed
2:51 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012
Paul...
I would love to clarify one thing about my MO as you put it... I harbor no ill feelings toward any person based on their beliefs, religious or not... There are very good people across the board, period.
However, any "group" barring their beliefs has, for lack of a better word, "Idiots" who are radicals and try to tell everyone how the world is and they talk stupid, act stupid, and smell stupid.... They even "flip-off" pastors during services...
You buddy, fit into this group... Period!
You're an idiot and nothing is going to change that. I don't admire your actions and I certainly don't agree with what you write... You're a radical trying unsuccessful to sell your position. No one of average intelligence is buying it!!!
Have a nice life and hit on some other articles to talk stupid again....
Ed
4:19 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012
Ohhh.... One other part here... And I know that you have at least 5-6 followers here, but, when you keep beating the drum to the same beat, same beat, same beat, same beat, and same beat... it gets sickening, very sickening and tired!!!
That's where you're at about now!!!
Ed
4:22 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012
You really should look at doing something "constructive" with your life...
MoonBeamWatcher
4:07 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012
It's like this Paul.
"Do you see MoonBeamWatcher talking with Paul?" Which one is he? The one waving his hands and shouting or the fellow trying to get a word in edgewise? JTP was kind to you, fair, reasonable and honest. The prodigal son comes to mind along with His condemnation of people permitting bad be substituted for good or worse. No harm no foul strikes me as fair and reasonable to me. My castigation of the ACLU was NEVER addressed by you or anyone! In Acton, MA the Pledge is under attack by the ACLU. America, OUR AMERICA is under attack and subject to a death of a THOUSAND CUTS with the ACLU slashing away! If ACTON rolls-over like Cranston finally did after a valiant effort . . . will that to be precedent? What say the good people of America about the ACLUs' failure to attack the president of these United States for LEGISLATING from the EXECUTIVE OFFICE?! How can King Obama make an insurance company do anything? How can Government demand and insist that medical people or anyone do ANYTHING they consider morally wrong?! If a large body of people doubt president Obamas' birth certificate, where is the investigative reporting, where is the ACLU? Does BO legally hold office? Just saying. It does disturb me to no end that He will welcome you with open arms when you come to your senses and understand that His ministers are but human with all of the human failings, just like YOU. That preacher could well be haunted by his treatment of you!
MoonBeamWatcher
4:10 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012
failings, just like YOU and ME. That preacher could well be haunted by his treatment of you and after he sees what he created by his action, cry his heart out.